Power Bytes: Money & Finance/PowerBytes Money and Finance CD-ROM 01/PowerBytes Money and Finance CD-ROM 01.iso/HyperCard Files/Hyper-Hackers Queue 1.0/Hyper-Hackers Queue 1.0/card_24655.txt

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From: [e-mail] (Chuq Von Rospach)

Date: 2 Mar 88 19:11:25 GMT

[As one of the people who been saying nice things about Shafer's book, here
 and in a book review I just turned in for Macintosh Horizon's magazine,
 I'll stick my electronic foot in mouth and comment on both Dan and Mitchell's
 comments]

> dan:
>However, I will say that there are some very poor ones out there
>that were thrown together in a matter of weeks and that are full of
>inaccuracies and examples that are not even syntactically correct
>(i.e.  they were never tried).  I feel there is a need for some
>informed criticism of these books in forums like this.  I do not feel
>that the reviews I have seen so far have been informed.  Folks, you
>shouldn't post a message to thousands of people around the world
>endorsing a book (or anything else) that you haven't thoroughly
>studied.

Dan's right, but not completely. There is a lot of gosh-wow going on,
probably too much. But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to say
people are shilling things they haven't worked with.

Part of the problem is probably expectation. What kind of book are you
looking for? If I were Dan Winkler, I'd want to see a book that went into
the nitty gritty details, that really gets down and deep into the guts.

Frankly, I want one of those, too. But that doesn't denigrate a book like
Shafer's, which, AS AN INTRODUCTORY TEXT, does its job well. I've been using
it as the "sit in my lap while I hack" book since I got it. I can find
things, and I've yet to run into a problem in the book I consider a killer.

Is that thoroughly studying a book? Typing in examples? Probably not, but
when you look at what book reviewers are paid (and even worse, what net
reviewers are paid... :->) you can't expect forty or fifty hours of work for
a 700 word book review. It won't happen.

That said, I also tried to point out that where this book worked best was as
an introductory text and as a convenient reference. I don't try to sell it
as an end-all work. Neither, as far as I can tell from my discussions with
him, does Shafer.

) Mitchell says:
)These first CP/M computer books where hastily written, often devoid of
)substance, inaccurate, and, in most cases, just plain worthless.

And the first Macintosh books were hastily written, devoid of substance,
inaccurate, and in the most cases just plain worthless. Anyone remember a
book called "Macintosh: Appliance of the Future"? I've got a copy. It's one
of the funniest things I've ever seen in print, except perhaps for the guy
who actually got a book published on 50 ways to draw a cat in MacPaint [no,
I'm NOT kidding! It exists!]

When word 3.0 came out, I bought a book called "Microsoft word made easy"
and told folks that it was a big improvement on the manuals, but it isn't
soup yet (anything is better than microsofts manuals, including a cookbook
in swahili). Later, came the Cobb Group's "definitive" guide to Word 3.0,
which isn't (bug it's close) and which is in constant use.


)The Goodman book is a classic case of this out-the-door-quick-for-market-share
)phenomena for HyperCard (published by Bantam who is a late starter in computer
)books). The Shafer book (published by Sams) is a classic case of
)out-the-door-quick-for-market-share for HyperTalk.

Also, since HyperCard is a 'free' product, and since it is one that is
passed around sans shrinkwrap, a justification can be made to have the
documentation out in third party. Apple's making minimal revenue on
HyperCard (software sales-wise. memory upgrades are another matter) and
since lots and lots of copies are floating around, making people rely on the
bundled manual would inhibit it's distribution and usefulness. This is, in
my eyes, one strong reason why Apple went with the Goodman book off the top -
Atkinson's strong committment to free distribution makes lots of proprietary
documentation somewhere between difficult and impossible.

) And as a HyperCard
)training book, Goodman's title is not that bad. But as a HyperTalk primer, it is
)the pits. And that is understandable since Goodman is not a programmer and never
)admits he is one.

This was, by the way, the biggest problem with his Focal Point stack. No
trained programmer would have shipped it. What it does is good. What it
doesn't do yet (simple things, like limit checking on input data, for one
simple but critical gaff) make Focal Point look MUCH more like a prototype
and a product. He even built modes into the various subsystems. sigh.

)I only wish they
)picked me to write it.

yeah. what he said.

)The first book out on HyperTalk was from Walking Shadow Press: "Programming with
)HyperTalk". The Walking Shadow book is distributed by a couple guys at Apple and
)to this day has no real distribution in book stores and so is not really a valid
)entry (yet).

Not really true. it's now out, you can get it at Computer Literacy, at
Stacey's in Palo Alto, and at ComputerWare.

(and in the interest of completeness, I should point out I reviewed and
panned the book weeks ago, long before the Shafer book appeared. So all the
reviews on the net haven't been thoughtless and glowing...)

)Its also expensive
)($24.95 for a book on a product that cost $49.00). On the other hand if I had to
)teach HyperTalk today there is little else to choose from so I would probably
)turn to this book, but create my own path for the student to follow rather than
)follow its table of contents.

Agreed, but computer books are expensive, and there are lots of pages here.
About the best computer book price you'll see is about $16.95 these days,
and it isn't out of line with other Macintosh books of the same weight.

And, yeah, I turn to both Shafer and Goodman primarily for guidance when I
can't figure it out for myself (whcih still happens more often than I
wish...). I think Shafer is stronger at the introductory angles, I think
Goodman is stronger as a reference, if you can find what you're looking for
(both are somewhat weak in organization, although I'll give the edge to
Shafer if you can live with a little less detail)

)<unabashed plug on - skip if you don't trust me>

Oh, we trust you, Mitchell!

)My company is working on such a HyperTalk programming book that is combination
)tutorial and reference. Our formula is not to be the first out, but to be the
)best out.

Great! When?

)It will be reviewed by Dan Winkler.

Best thing I've heard yet.

)<unabashed plug off>

I, for one, will look forward to it, but with some skepticism. I tend to
have some problems with Waite books, because I've found many of them to be
somewhat on the simplistic side. A classic case of this is "Tricks of the
Unix Masters" which I found to be neither tricky or full of much in the way
of secrets, but rather shallow and naive.

Which just goes to show, you can't win them all....

But we can hope for the best, and the HyperTalk Bible looks like a strong
contender.

Actually, what I'd really like to see is a compendium of the best bits and
pieces from the best HyperTalk authors on the various nets. The HyperTalk
cookbook. So if you need a button that flashes twice, changes icons, and
irons your shirt, you can go to chapter 12 of the cookbook and find the
script. THAT would be the most useful HyperTalk book of all. descriptive,
full of examples, and detailed.

(After all, how many cookbooks start with "this is an egg? If you take the
 shell off, there's this neat stuff inside!")



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Re: HyperTalk Books, How to Judge?